ITH Poker Forum

[kweeni]

on another poker forum there was a lot of discussion (and a lot of different opinions) on how to play the following hand:

0,1/0,2 Fixed-Limit Hold'em (7 handed)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K , 5
MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO calls, BU folds, SB calls, Hero checks.

Flop: (5,00 SB) Q , K , 2 (5 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, MP1 calls, MP2 raises, CO calls, SB folds, Hero calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (6,50 BB) 4 (4 players)
Hero checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, CO bets, Hero calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

River: (10,50 BB) 9 (4 players)
Hero checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, CO bets, Hero calls, MP1 calls, MP2 folds.

Final Pot: 13,50 BB

especially the play on the flop was the topic of discussion. can you give me your opinions?

[AlamedaMike]

I am not an expert by any means however I feel that most will say that you should not bet the turn OOP with only a 5 kicker, two broadway cards and a flush draw on the board - you are going to get called 100% and often raised.

The point of betting her is to fold some players or put more money in the pot with the best hand or best draw.

A check and a fold if it is 2-bets back to you is probably a good idea. A call of one bet on the flop to score a 5 or a King might be worth it.

[pokerbear]

Hi. Here are Barry T's Rule of Thumb for playing trash hands that you got a free play in the BB (or a 1/3 play from the SB).

Note this rule is for average players, not experts.

You MUST hit the flop twice to continue against any real opposition. Else, fold.

My students would have check-folded this hand had there been a bet/raise or even a bet/call. I do not advocate playing TPNK for value in these circumstances.

Yes, you sometimes lose a pot you would have won, but I believe you save money in the long run. As my friend Roy Cooke puts it: If you think you may have kicker trouble, fold now.

-barryt

[Misunderstud]

Sound advice, Barry. Presumably that would also hold if SB leads, with so many still to act? What would you have your students do, though, if CO leads and what's the plan thereafter?

[pokerbear]

Hi. If SB bets, I fold. If CO bets, I tend to CR and await developments if he is typical player.

-barryt

[kweeni]

Thanks for the advice Barry.
One more question: What if you check the flop, MP2 bets and CO calls. Can't you make a call here?
You have a weak hand and it is vulnerable against flush and straight draws but you have top pair and it is robust against overcards. MP2 can bet with a lot of hands (including flush and straight draws and middle pair) and because CO calls he is most likely on a draw (he isn't protecting his hand).
If you play passive (check/call) and let your opponent do the betting you will lose the minimum if you are behind and win the maximum if you are ahead. As long as no scare cards come on the turn of river you are likely to have the best hand. Most people don't play Kx unless x is a high card so the chance you are dominated is smaller than if you were holding A5o and you made top pair on a similar board. So I would be more inclined to fold A5o than K5o.

[AlamedaMike]

Look at the pot odds for your call if two players put in money on the flop - you need to hit a K or 5 to make 2 pair - that is 5 outs and 8-1 - you have just a little over 8-1. Even if you hit your two pair you still may lose. Like the expert, Barry said, fold it and wait for a better hand.

[pokerbear]

Hi. Kweeni: You can almost always find a scenario where you MAY have the best hand. If you can't stand folding, then play on and find out. You will sleep better, and maybe even win. My advice is to fold, and, yes, I understand you will sometimes be folding the winner. The question is is it often enough to avoid routine losses. My vote is no, but you know your players better than I do.

But I suspect you are looking for reasons to play rather than reasons to fold. With bad hands, This is poor overall approach, IMO.

-barryt

[kweeni]

you're right. weak and vulnerable hand in a small pot, so fold.
the fact you're holding top pair doesn't matter. you're kicker is too weak.