ITH Poker Forum

[AlamedaMike]

Barry wrote a very nice article (almost all are very nice come to think of it) titled is check raising costing you money. I read some other articles on the web about check raising and that author said that most players do not check raise well. I have to agree.

Lately I have been playing on full tilt 1/2 LHE and trying to work on my strategy and tactics.

I find that sometimes I am too strong with my very good hands and they fold. Either a check raise or a 3-bet. I try to comfort myself saying that if they had anything almost as good as my hand they would have called. I might be deluding myself there.

I hit a set LP and was check raised and I 3-bet - the other players folded before the river.

Here is hand one -------------

Full Tilt 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Tc, Td.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 2 folds, CO checks, Hero calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) 4h, Ks, Ts (6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, CO checks, Hero bets, SB calls, BB folds, UTG+1 folds, CO raises, Hero 3-bets, SB folds, CO calls.

Was my 3-bet too strong - I think not? agree?

Turn: (6.50 BB) 7d (3 players)
CO checks, Hero bets, CO folds.

Final Pot: 6.50 BB

Hand two --------------

Full Tilt 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 7h, 7c.
3 folds, Hero raises, 2 folds, Button calls, 2 folds.

Flop: (5.50 SB) 7s, Qc, 5d (2 players)
Hero bets, Button calls.

Turn: (3.75 BB) Qh (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero raises, Button folds.

here we are HU and I have a very good hand. If ahead hard to lose. What was the best play and why? Just bet, check and call or check and raise?

Final Pot: 5.75 BB

----------------

I am not that good at trapping and avoiding traps. Work in process.

[ResumeMan]

Well I haven't read Barry's articles, but it seems to me that if you're finding that people are bailing out on your strong hands (especially sets) when you check raise or 3-bet, maybe you aren't pushing enough. If you are forcing people off their hands in big-ish pots on the turn, keep doing it till they stop letting you.

But in hand 1, why on earth are you limping after a limp and check with TT? That's a great PF hand but is hugely vulnerable. Make 'em pay to beat you.

[Misunderstud]

Hand 1 I'd raise pf too - you want the blinds out if possible. Once you flop the set, just bet and raise at every opportunity.

Hand 2 I'd play the same pf and flop, but bet the turn - the c/r just tells him he's beat. If he has a Q he'll raise you anyway with what will almost certainly be the 2nd best hand, so you can ram it there. I think you'll get called down for 2 bets by a lot of hands you'll scare off with a c/r.

I made a huge error with a c/r yesterday when I flopped 2pr with the pf aggressor to my left. I was very pleased with myself when I c/r'd the field. The SB to his left then turned a set and you know the rest. I should have led, the pfr would probably have raised and the eventual winner might well have folded.

I think c/raising is good for trapping a big field with a monster or getting a fold HU, and not much else. If you've got a hand, just bet it.

[AlamedaMike]

Thanks for the replies guys - good points. I would like to comment on hand #1. There were 2 limpers and the blinds were left - I had a choice -

If the blinds would fold then if I raised then it would be 2 bets and 2 opponents. The odds of an over card are very high so I most likely need to hit a set 7.5-1 - I would rather let the blinds in and have 1 bet and 5 players.

If the blinds would not fold then it is 2 bets with 4 opponents - I really need to hit a set to win and as said 7.5-1.

You really want 5 oppoents I am told. JJ+ I would have raised 2 limpers.

I think that this is a point well worth disucssion in more detail.

Thanks

[Misunderstud]

I think (but stand to be corrected) that TT is basically just too good a hand to play for set value alone. It is, however, vulnerable to overcards, as you say, so you want to knock out A-J/rags from the blinds to give yourself the best chance of staying ahead on the flop. Raising pf also gives you a better chance of folding overs that whiff the flop with a c-bet. TT UI isn't going to hold up to the river too often, so the sooner you can win with it, and the fewer opps you have, the better.

You only NEED to hit a set if you can guarantee that one of your 4 opps will overtake you on the flop. That's not the case by any means. TT will fairly often remain the best hand on the flop, even against 4. But it will much more often remain best against 2

[AlamedaMike]

good points and I would like some others to comment. Of course, it depends on the game conditions. Will the blinds fold a naked over card? What you describe is great for 0 or 1 limper I think. Here I have two limpers. The pot is going to be 3 way for sure.

In this game the small blind is $0.50 or 1/2 - the SB is getting about 5 or 6 to 1 on his money assuming that the BB just calls.

If I had raised I think in this case the blinds were coming in. I hit a set but that is rare.

I think the probability of an over card is over 50% - ask Buggs or Nside.

Matt's starting hand in ITH is raise 1 and call 2 with TT LP. But, this is a guideline, right Matt?

[jeffnc]

I would like to comment on hand #1. There were 2 limpers and the blinds were left.

No, not exactly.

A few comments. First the important thing to remember about the ITH charts is that they're designed for beginners. Depending on specific table conditions, the plays are "wrong" (unprofitable), but there might be even more profitable plays for more experienced players.

There is nothing really wrong with limping with TT here. At this point you are very likely to have a 5-way. If it's a raised 5-way pot, that's fine too.

But one important thing to keep in mind is that the CO didn't limp, he posted. So now you have only 1 person who VP$IP, with 2.5 small bets of dead money in there. So that argues even more strongly for a raise. Sure the CO might come along, but he also probably has a crappy hand and is calling your raise "just because" (whether the blinds come along, he might or might not be right to call.)

Sure you have a vulnerable hand against 5 players, but if you're OK playing this hand 5-way for set value even in a raised pot, then I don't see how you can be scared to raise here. You might get heads up with the EP with a ton of dead money in the pot, or you might have a big 5-way pot which is OK for trying to flop a set anyway.

[AlamedaMike]

Very good catch there Jeff - CO checked that means that he posted. I missed that. Not good.

First, I had a large glass of 2002 Reserve Cab wine ($80) with dinner so I am feeling very good at the moment I drink pretty good wine priced between $21 to $150. The snob that I am I will not consume the cheaper wines.

Second, I am not anywhere as good as I want to be at limit hold'em. I need to be better to afford the wine that I like.

That said, I see your point that a raise in this spot is better than a limp. I'm still working on my game.

Thanks for the input.

[pokerbear]

Hi. To the point that has been emphasized, yes, a raise would be better, but a call is hardly the worst play you can make. Readers of my book would typically raise automatically to create dead money, gain position, and take control. Anyway, raising is fun. If you only raise predictably, you will easier to read. Several of your opponents who would not raise with 10-10 will think you are making an error, which is good for you.

About the check-raises, the problem is you never know. My column emphasized that check-raising the turn by average players sends up a red flag to good players to get away from their hand, while just betting by these players will probably score (at least) calls, My column did not discuss the flop, IIRC.

Check-raising the field with a likely winning hand is is a good thing. Yes, sometimes it fails. Much depends on the post-flop pot size: the larger it is the more elimination of players is crucial and pot building is not.

Just because people fold does not mean you did it wrong. It may mean they were betting wi9th almost nothing and gave up, which they may have done more cheaply if you did not make your play.

-barryt

[AlamedaMike]

Thanks again Barry - I think that they most likely did not have much. Online I find that many of them will often call with just about anything.

I don't plan to change my check-raising but I did want to discuss this hand. Many of the decisions at the table are borderline and it takes a real expert to get it right more times that not.

[rsar51]

It all depends on who you are check raising...

You'd better hand a strong hand against the LAG as he's going to re-challenge you...

Now against a TAG he'll more than likely check but if he doesn't you're in for a real battle...

My suggestions are only taking on the LAG with this play...

[rsar51]

Hi. To the point that has been emphasized, yes, a raise would be better, but a call is hardly the worst play you can make. Readers of my book would typically raise automatically to create dead money, gain position, and take control. Anyway, raising is fun. If you only raise predictably, you will easier to read. Several of your opponents who would not raise with 10-10 will think you are making an error, which is good for you.

About the check-raises, the problem is you never know. My column emphasized that check-raising the turn by average players sends up a red flag to good players to get away from their hand, while just betting by these players will probably score (at least) calls, My column did not discuss the flop, IIRC.

Check-raising the field with a likely winning hand is is a good thing. Yes, sometimes it fails. Much depends on the post-flop pot size: the larger it is the more elimination of players is crucial and pot building is not.

Just because people fold does not mean you did it wrong. It may mean they were betting wi9th almost nothing and gave up, which they may have done more cheaply if you did not make your play.

-barryt

Hi BEAR how are you?...

Hey you need to skip over to your place as you've been neglecting it...

[rsar51]

Well I haven't read Barry's articles, but it seems to me that if you're finding that people are bailing out on your strong hands (especially sets) when you check raise or 3-bet, maybe you aren't pushing enough. If you are forcing people off their hands in big-ish pots on the turn, keep doing it till they stop letting you.

But in hand 1, why on earth are you limping after a limp and check with TT? That's a great PF hand but is hugely vulnerable. Make 'em pay to beat you.

You haven't read any of the BEARS articles?...

Better start now if you want to improve your game...

[AlamedaMike]

Hi BEAR how are you?...

Hey you need to skip over to your place as you've been neglecting it...

Welcome to the ITH forum Sonny. You will find that most of the players here are online players. I think some play live but not the majority. You will find some very good and serious people here that have a wealth of knowledge.

Barry is most likely tied up with getting through life with playing poker for a living, writing for cardplayer among other things.