ITH Poker Forum

[jeffnc]

What are the most profitable limit games in absolute terms? i.e. $/hr.

Assume a player is "good" (not a world class contender in the "big game", but a solid winner at medium stakes.) I know that's kind of vague, but generally what city and casino(s) offer the best games? For reference I've found Bellagio $8/16 games to be pretty easy (but not spread as much nowadays), the Bellagio $15/30 games to be somewhat soft but with some solid players mixed in, the Mirage $10/20 and $20/40 games to be a mixed bag - not spread all the time, and sometimes tough/stingy competition (but sometimes not). Have not played Atlantic City, Los Angeles, or anything higher than $20/40 (I've played $30/60 online).

[pokerbear]

Hi. I am not an expert in this, but I do have a opinion.

1 - Stay out of Las Vegas. You can find better games almost anywhere else. If you are in LV, play 15-30.

2 - Play 20-40 around the country: Tunica, Muckleshoot, Shakopee, Foxwoods, Chicago, etc. These games have some decent players, but usually are looser than average and easier to beat.

3 - Move to LA, and play 15-30 or 20-40 at the Commerce. The games vary widely, but with so many 30-60, 40-80 and 60-120 games going, the 15-30 and 20-40 are relatively easier.

[nsidestrate]

Do you play much on-line? I ask because in my admittedly limited experience, Las Vegas limit poker has been much softer than comparable tables online. I have found the Bellagio 30/60 game to be especially soft in the evenings/weekends and the Mirage 20/40 to be very lucrative when it runs. I may have a biased sample, because most of my experience is during the WSOP, but I have yet to play at a 30/60 table in Las Vegas that is as challenging as the usual line-up at PokerStars 30/60 or even Stars 15/30.

The limit tables at the Rio during the WSOP seemed to be generally populated by tourney players who should probably stick to tourney play.

[taz115]

I have found the Mirage games to be good during the day. I've played 10/20 there several times and 20/40 once. The 20/40 game may have been an anomaly but it would have been the best EV middle limit game I've ever played.

[pokerbear]

Hi. ON-line poker is an order of magnitude tougher than casino games.

I make a living from the Bellagio 30-60. Of course I find it easy. I was trying to answer the question regarding a "good" [player. Hey, if you can consistently beat the Mirage 20-40 (which no longer runs regularly as I understand it,) that's great. Not everyone can.

[taz115]

I've always been (a little bit) intimidated to play in a middle limit game at the Bellagio for some reason. Mayeb it's because I know there are regualr pros hanging around. I know they are in the games at the Mirage and the Wynn as well but I have never even sat in a game at the Bellagio for some reason. The next time I head down to Vegas I'm going to play at the Bellagio, at least for a session, no matter what.

[nsidestrate]

In terms on consistently beating the Mirage 20/40 game, I guess it is almost impossible to know. We'll frequently tell posters not to trust their stats on a game until they have 100,000 hands at which point they should have a decent idea where they stand. I figure that would amount to about two years of forty hour a week play live, so it would be very hard to determine as a tourist where I really stand in that game.

I will say that I frequently see people making what I consider to be glaring errors at these limits whenever I do play live (things like open limping from mid to late position or flat calling late position raises from the Button or SB). More subtle errors, like failing to bet the river with medium strength hands in the right spots seem pretty endemic. In general, you see more straightforward play, with less bluff turn check-raises and the like, which makes it a bit easier to react appropriately.

[rocketplayer]

Foxwoods 15/30 limit play is at best equivalent to 2/4 on Party Poker

[jeffnc]

In my limited experience the Mirage games are less consistent than the Bellagio games. I was in a 10/20 game one time when the 2 main donators were asking to go to a 20/40 game. If I had the bankroll back then I would have tripped on myself following them. But some other times the game has not been running, or it was mostly filled with solid players. One time the 10/20 game was so tough I didn't even bother with it, because I'd only be able to cover the rake.

At the Bellagio I've never seen a player I thought was better than me or a table I couldn't beat. Of course there might have been some unknown pro doing some subtle thing I didn't comprehend that gave him a small edge. But I've never seen a game I'd really want to avoid. Whereas in NL there have been players and tables I've found intimidating. I haven't played $30/60 or above there yet, but I've observed plenty of weak players while I waited for another table.

I do look forward to playing in some of the other places Barry mentioned some day.

[jeffnc]

I've always been (a little bit) intimidated to play in a middle limit game at the Bellagio for some reason. Mayeb it's because I know there are regualr pros hanging around.

There are plenty of guys who I've been told are pros, or "really good". This will happen when I get friendly with a local player next to me and they get chatty about other players at the table. And the players aren't all that good. I mean some of them are fine, but nothing that will be worse than break even with you. In other words you're not going to get felted by anyone EV-wise. Even if you play an even game with them, you still make money from the 3 or 4 losing players at the table at any given time. Even if you're going to end up at a table with Barry T or Roy Cooke or whoever, you're still not going to lose your shirt to them even if you do get in hands with them, which you might not even. Since you're both going to be playing relatively tight, and since the majority of hands you do play will have fairly easy decisions, the number of trouble spots you'll get in during a session is going to be very small.

[jeffnc]

I will say that I frequently see people making what I consider to be glaring errors at these limits whenever I do play live (things like open limping from mid to late position or flat calling late position raises from the Button or SB).

Since starting card values are more important in limit than NL, I think one of the biggest errors I see is cold calling raises with dominated hands.

On the other hand, if people fold to raises a lot but are otherwise weak, I'll sometimes limp first from MP to induce more calls and play more pots against lesser skilled players.

[nsidestrate]

I've always been (a little bit) intimidated to play in a middle limit game at the Bellagio for some reason. Mayeb it's because I know there are regualr pros hanging around.

There are plenty of guys who I've been told are pros, or "really good". This will happen when I get friendly with a local player next to me and they get chatty about other players at the table. And the players aren't all that good. I mean some of them are fine, but nothing that will be worse than break even with you. In other words you're not going to get felted by anyone EV-wise. Even if you play an even game with them, you still make money from the 3 or 4 losing players at the table at any given time. Even if you're going to end up at a table with Barry T or Roy Cooke or whoever, you're still not going to lose your shirt to them even if you do get in hands with them, which you might not even. Since you're both going to be playing relatively tight, and since the majority of hands you do play will have fairly easy decisions, the number of trouble spots you'll get in during a session is going to be very small.

I played briefly with Mason Malmuth at 30/60 at the Bellagio. Although his play seemed quite solid, he was not the kind of player that was uncomfortable to play with. That is to say, I wouldn't consider a table with nine of him a good spot, but I certainly would not avoid playing with him. If my brief experience was typical, he was tight and pretty straightforward. He was two to my left, which seemed like a pretty good spot to me.

I will say that I frequently see people making what I consider to be glaring errors at these limits whenever I do play live (things like open limping from mid to late position or flat calling late position raises from the Button or SB).

Since starting card values are more important in limit than NL, I think one of the biggest errors I see is cold calling raises with dominated hands.

On the other hand, if people fold to raises a lot but are otherwise weak, I'll sometimes limp first from MP to induce more calls and play more pots against lesser skilled players.

I was thinking more of the guys who only raise 3% of their hands, but I'll grant your point.

[jeffnc]

I will say that I frequently see people making what I consider to be glaring errors at these limits whenever I do play live (things like open limping from mid to late position or flat calling late position raises from the Button or SB).

After reading a couple dozen or so poker books, you don't get as much out of each new one - you tend to read a bunch of stuff you already know, and then just look for nuggets. I got several from Barry's book, but one I remember was emphasizing the benefits of creating dead money.

[AlamedaMike]

These two questions are for anyone that might have an opinion.

Hi. ON-line poker is an order of magnitude tougher than casino games.

Does any one have an opinion on how tough/easy the 1/2 LHE game in full tilt is?

Does playing online help with live games? Or are the games intrinsically so different to require a different skill set?

Barry's reply taken literally would be 10 times - 3/6 online = 30/60 live, I believe that.

I have started playing on Full Tilt 1/2 LHE (3,000 hands). I played over 60,000 hands on PS micro limits .25/.5 games. See this link. I found the low limits (1/2+) limits tough for me to beat consistently.

If you say easy as pie then I should be beating it for 1 bb/100 hands right? If you think that it is tough then .5bb/100 hands should be about my speed, ya think?

I have found some tough players but a bunch of easy ones as well. 3,000 hands is nothing to compare yet.

I would like to play at a level that somewhat taxes my thinking but where I can win a little at the same time (do not want to refund my account, I funded $300 and my bankroll varies between $330-$390 - I will put in 300 big bets if I need to). I play online to practice my game but I prefer live games.

Live I play mostly 3/6 and I am a break even player. Most of the live 3/6 games are bingo fests, very little poker logic required, you need to hit your hand and have it hold up. They are hard to beat partly because the drop is $4 and $1 dealer tip.

Thanks